This topic contains 29 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  JoPo 9 months, 3 weeks ago.

Envelope Follower


  • valankar
    Participant
    • Posts: 1

    Is it possible to do an envelope follower modulation in Falcon? I would like to, for example, lower an effect gain (say a delay) when the main synth plays. It’s done commonly via a send and sidechain to duck the effect.


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    Is it possible to do an envelope follower modulation in Falcon? I would like to, for example, lower an effect gain (say a delay) when the main synth plays. It’s done commonly via a send and sidechain to duck the effect.

     

    No, unfortunately Falcon has no audio input whatsoever, a big feature request which has not yet been fulfilled by the UVI developers.


    Thomas Helzle
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 22

    Can one work around it in this case somehow by using the envelopes of the main synth to control the delay, maybe by using an intermediate control that is controlled by the envelopes and is able to “reach” the delay?
    Just brainstorming here, I didn’t try it yet, but basically the system “knows” the needed stuff already, so an envelope follower isn’t really needed as long as both the main synth and the delay are inside Falcon.

    In case the main synth signal is external, it may be possible to do it like for instance in Bitwig Studio where you have an envelope follower as a factory device (“Audio MOD”) and can drive any plugin device parameter with it.

    Cheers,

    Tom


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    You would need an inverted re-triggering envelope to duck the effect which is only available on keygroup level, but a delay effect can’t be inserted on keygroup level. But there is a workaround which might sort of work described in the knowledge-base here but I doubt it would satisfyingly create a ducking behaviour.


    Thomas Helzle
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 22

    Thanks Simon,

    I’ll have to give that a try.

    Cheers,

    Tom


    pat
    Participant
    • Posts: 24

    This was one of the first things I thought of as well… a ducking delay. Here’s the setup I tried (it doesn’t work):

    * delay on layer

    * modulate wet knob with a layer ADSR

    I don’t know if I’m doing something wrong, but the ADSR doesn’t seem to affect the wet mix at all. Which if that’s the case, I don’t understand why I can add the modulation in the first place. But more likely I’m doing something wrong.

    It’s… “interesting,” working around Falcon’s limitations (in an otherwise very powerful tool). I think it might be too complex for my brain at the moment 🙂


    Frequency
    Participant
    • Posts: 25

    but the ADSR doesn’t seem to affect the wet mix at all. Which if that’s the case, I don’t understand why I can add the modulation in the first place. But more likely I’m doing something wrong. It’s… “interesting,” working around Falcon’s limitations (in an otherwise very powerful tool). I think it might be too complex for my brain at the moment 🙂

    I have come across this as well, ADSR allowed as modulator but no resulting movement.

    A corrected method or a workaround is indeed needed.


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    Probably the most confusing thing in Falcon, that one can setup things which are not functional, but it all boils down to the same thing related to the Falcon hierarchyre-triggering envelopes only happen on keygroup level. If you link a dummy keygroup to the ADSR on layer level and then assign that ADSR to the delay wet parameter you have a monophonic envelope to control the delay, of course the envelope has to be inverted so that when the synth stops playing the delay will become audible, probably a multi-envelope would be a better solution as the ADSR stops working after the release phase (and there is no infinite release time in the ADSR or DAHDSR).


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    It works, here is a quick and dirty test patch, when you release the key, the wet parameter of the dual delay quickly fades in, when you play, the signal is dry.

     

    http://falcontinuum.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Delay-Gater.uvip_.zip


    pat
    Participant
    • Posts: 24

    Yes this is very confusing. Why can you assign modulators if they don’t do anything? I end up spending time and effort wondering, “Have I done something wrong, or is this a weird case that Falcon doesn’t support?”


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    Well, once you get used to the hierarchy you know what is possible and what isn’t so it becomes a non-issue.


    Frequency
    Participant
    • Posts: 25

    It works, here is a quick and dirty test patch, when you release the key, the wet parameter of the dual delay quickly fades in, when you play, the signal is dry. http://falcontinuum.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Delay-Gater.uvip_.zip

     

    Ah yes, that’s the key and I now understand, thank you for the example Simon.

    So the steps are:

    1. Create layer with desired effect to be modulated.

    2. Create at least two key groups in that layer, one for sound, one for linking (turn gain down)

    3. Create retrigering envelope on the layer, set as legato

    4. Modulate any parameter from the linking key group created in step 2 to the retrigering envelope created in step 3

    5. Link the effect parameter created in step 1 to the retrigering envelope created in step 3

    6. Edit modulation of the effect parameter to invert the action.

    7. Enjoy


    Frequency
    Participant
    • Posts: 25

    So I took this a step further.

    I wanted to accomplish this across layers. I do not know how to share modulators across layers (yet) so I used the example above to create a second layer set up as the first. I then created an aux on the program level with my desired effect and set it 100 wet. I then assigned the retrigering envelopes I had set up within the layers (multi envelope in this case) to the slider of the “send to aux 1” by right clicking the slider. Again, edit modulation, invert, set legato.

    like most things in Falcon, I’m sure there are other ways to accomplish this and this technique probably has further implications here in sound design.

    • This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Frequency.

    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    So I took this a step further. I wanted to accomplish this across layers. I do not know how to share modulators across layers (yet) so I used the example above to create a second layer set up as the first. I then created an aux on the program level with my desired effect and set it 100 wet. I then assigned the retrigering envelopes I had set up within the layers (multi envelope in this case) to the slider of the “send to aux 1” by right clicking the slider. Again, edit modulation, invert, set legato. like most things in Falcon, I’m sure there are other ways to accomplish this and this technique probably has further implications here in sound design.

     

    Well if you put the ADSR/multi envelope on program level, you can share it between layers.


    Frequency
    Participant
    • Posts: 25

    So I took this a step further. I wanted to accomplish this across layers. I do not know how to share modulators across layers (yet) so I used the example above to create a second layer set up as the first. I then created an aux on the program level with my desired effect and set it 100 wet. I then assigned the retrigering envelopes I had set up within the layers (multi envelope in this case) to the slider of the “send to aux 1” by right clicking the slider. Again, edit modulation, invert, set legato. like most things in Falcon, I’m sure there are other ways to accomplish this and this technique probably has further implications here in sound design.

    Well if you put the ADSR/multi envelope on program level, you can share it between layers.

     

    i just tried this, it works! Thank you

    You do get more control over how the envelope effects each layer by setting it up as per the example, limiting the sliders for example, would you agree or not? Although I guess you could set up multiple program level envelopes to achieve individual controls.

    adding to my example above in combination with the placement of the multi envelope on the program level assigned to the “mix” knob on a reverb, I was able to achieve a reverb that starts when you quit playing and disappears (or gets quite) when you start playing.

    So basically it’s controlling an aux send amount with layer send sliders and the overall mix of the verb with the program envelope.

    yeah, good fun.


    pat
    Participant
    • Posts: 24

    Okay so I did a bit more experimenting with this. I think it can be done just a bit simpler and more straightforward…

    1. Create your keygroup and add a layer delay like normal. Set the wet amount where you want it
    2. Create a second oscillator within the same keygroup, and disable it
    3. Create your layer envelope w/ legato trigger mode, and route it to the disabled oscillator’s gain
    4. Modulate the wet amount with the envelope, and set the ratio slider to -1.00 (don’t press the invert button)

    This did the trick for me. Frankly I’m not sure why the layer envelope has to trigger an oscillator for this to work, but it does. In fact I think you can do it without a dummy oscillator at all.

    1. Create keygroup & add layer delay
    2. Assign a new layer envelope to the oscillator’s gain, set the ratio to zero
    3. Assign the layer envelope to the delay wet amount, set ratio to -1

    This does it without any extra keygroups or oscillators. It just adds a single, unused modulation on the oscillator gain. At least I think that’s what’s happening with a ratio of 0 (and that’s what it sounds like to me).

    I don’t know how to upload patches otherwise I’d share an example.


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    If you want to upload/share stuff, please use your own server/webspace/whatever for it, we don’t want to supply a database for user content, otherwise my server will get bloated over the next few years. The options are plenty nowadays.


    Sampleconstruct
    Keymaster
    • Posts: 100

    Well if it’s a dummy keygroup or a dummy oscillator doesn’t matter, same principle.


    pat
    Participant
    • Posts: 24

    Well it does matter… if it’s a dummy keygroup, you can’t use one of the mono play modes 🙂  But you can if you use a dummy oscillator, or a dummy modulation (aka no extra keygroup or oscillator at all).

    I’ve confirmed that if you set the modulation ratio to 0 you get no modulation… so you can modulate an oscillator gain w/ the layer / program envelope, ratio set to 0 and it won’t change the sound.

    Here’s an example patch that uses this technique. It uses a program ADSR and modulates the oscillator’s gain w/ a 0 ratio (no modulation), and a reverb chain’s return level. The way I’ve configured the ADSR, you’ll hear the initial attack with reverb, then the reverb will fade and it will be completely dry, and when you let go of the key the reverb will fade back in.

    I’m starting to get the hang of navigating around list view too. Neat. Thanks to you both for explaning so much of this stuff!


    Frequency
    Participant
    • Posts: 25

    thanks also to you Pat for the efficient method, I have tried and have found that the extra key group is not actually needed.

    This idea Simon has brought forth has profoundly impacted my designs.

    I’m glad I joined.

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